2004 termi swap fuel questions.

[MustangChris]

alright guys... got pretty much everything worked out... got some shop space, got the motor getting pulled this week, been doing alot of reading...


i have a 2003 shop manual and a 1996 shop manual.. and im getting cross-eyed reading some of this stuff...


My goal is (before i get started) to put in a 2003 tank that i've already baught and i would like to keep a return style fuel system.

It appears most terminator drivers upgrade to a return style system, which my engine builder also mentioned to me... (he also owns a termi)

anyways, if we cant get this all weezled out, ill register on SVTP, but im pretty sure i wouldnt fit in too well over there. lol.

the 2003/2004 gas tanks have more effective sumps, dual pumps, and a returnless style system.  The last thing ford wanted was a cobra hitting a corner (with that bad ars IRS) and starve the fuel pumps...

so, how do i get this bad-ars awesome gas tank into my 96, complete with a functional return style system?  Ford says "minor modifications" are required, so im not worried about the fitment, im worried about the pumps, the rails, the lines, etc. etc. etc.

also, i am getting the entire FDPM harness.

Thanks all,
Chris

[KWClutch]

Well you don't need the FPDM or harness if you're wanting to keep the return style that's already on your car. The FPDM tells the RETUNLESS pump when to turn on and off. A return style pump keeps pumping no matter what and the extra returns back to your tank. You need to figure out what you're wanting to do, but to modify your current return style to support the HP you're going to push it will be significantly more expensive than to switch your car to the 03 returnless system.

[Dalamar]

sounds like switching to the 03 system would be better.

are your eyes still crossed?

[MustangChris]

sounds like switching to the 03 system would be better.

are your eyes still crossed?

yea,  ive got all my ford manuals out. but they dont give much tech info... just ..... how to take apart and put back together info...

lol...

Well you don't need the FPDM or harness if you're wanting to keep the return style that's already on your car. The FPDM tells the RETUNLESS pump when to turn on and off. A return style pump keeps pumping no matter what and the extra returns back to your tank. You need to figure out what you're wanting to do, but to modify your current return style to support the HP you're going to push it will be significantly more expensive than to switch your car to the 03 returnless system.

okay, so what does it take to get a dual-pump/termi tank with a return style?  i dont need to *keep* the 1996 ford "OEM" stuff, if going 100% aftermarket will be easier/cheeper...

or is that a super-generalized question??

[Dalamar]

why not just get a Walboro intank pump, and run new lines to a new fuel rail?

[MustangChris]

i dono. thats why im asking. lol.


what does that consist of?  can i use the cobra tank?  the cobra tank has better designed sumps to help prevent starving the pump. so, thats why i was hoping to use it...  can i use the walbro with a stock hat? (ive never done anything on the fuel system, except for taking off the injectors from a friends PI motor and changing my own filter.)

[jkoogler]

your stock fuel lines for a pullied cobra will be ok. Im using stock everything except for 60 injectors, 255 in tank 255 external I modified my stock fuel rails. its very easy to do. Do a searrch on corral. This is the same set up I had on my t-trim setup and I made 475 to the tires without any issues. This will work until I add a nitrous kit but I am going to run set up small tank set up for that.

[MustangChris]

awesome.   what do the stock lines give out at?

[KWClutch]

Yeah one 255 wont do it. You can also use 2 Walbros or SVT Focus pumps/ Ford Aviator pumps or better yet Ford GT pumps.

[MustangChris]

i was leaning toward ford GT pumps.  but that was about all i could figure out from scrolling through svtp....

[KWClutch]

If you wanted to go return style you'd need to upgrade both of your fuel lines. Braided is the only way to go and it's expensive. You'll need to buy http://www.maperformance.com/aeromotive-adjustable-fuel-pressure-regulator-with-install-kit-dsm.html. And either modify the 03 Cobra hat or buy a FORE hat http://www.lethalperformance.com/03-04-svt-cobra-fuel-delivery-fore-precision-works-fuel-hats-c-16_261_2526/fore-precision-works-03-04-cobra-dual-walbro-pump-billet-hat-p-17794. It gets expensive really fast. That's not including the rails. You can modify rails as well or buy bigger ones.

[MustangChris]

alright... now we are onto something... lol.

so, i'd need to buy 2 of those FORE hats, right?
plus 2 GT pumps.
Plus the aeromotive FPR Kit

And maybe even fuel rails if needed

plus that DSM FPR kit only comew with 4 feet of line.....  im sure id need more???

Thats if i go aftermarket.

What will it take to get the cobra tank in without all the aftermarket stuff, trying to use my cobra/GT stuff?

What kind of power can the cobra/GT stuff handle?

[96_SVT_Cobra]

why not just get a Walboro intank pump, and run new lines to a new fuel rail?

thats what i been telling him, but he wants to be a pain in the arse. lol

[96_SVT_Cobra]

Yeah one 255 wont do it. You can also use 2 Walbros or SVT Focus pumps/ Ford Aviator pumps or better yet Ford GT pumps.

i dont see y it wouldnt for a 03/04 motor with mild bolt ons. my car made 550 with a single walbro and a bap with 60lb injectors. and it still has a lil room.

[MustangChris]

what injectors come stock?

[96_SVT_Cobra]

on a termi. im pretty sure they are 39lb. but with the bolt ons and pulley u talked about before, you will prolly only have 440 -450 rwhp.

[MustangChris]

full bolt ons, pulley, ported eaton. those are my plans... :-)   what kinda power? and waht kind of fuel modifications?

Aaron, i hate being a pain the ars, but i wanna look at all my options... lol.
I want to avoid a BAP, if possible, but money may speak for me. lol.

as for an upgraded cobra system, i didnt want to spend $2,000.00 so im leaning toward using as much GT stuff as i can... so NOW your advise is coming into play.. you were just ahead of your time. thats all. lol!

[KWClutch]

Yeah one 255 wont do it. You can also use 2 Walbros or SVT Focus pumps/ Ford Aviator pumps or better yet Ford GT pumps.

Right, you're using a BAP. He would have to run an inline system like that and that is also pretty pricy. Not saying it's inferior. It's a great set up and I'd love to go return style down the road. I just think at the moment it would be cheaper/easier for him to go returnless. And Matt you'd only need ONE hat. That one hat holds both INTERNAL pumps...which is very nice.
i dont see y it wouldnt for a 03/04 motor with mild bolt ons. my car made 550 with a single walbro and a bap with 60lb injectors. and it still has a lil room.

[MustangChris]

KW,  that quote was a little tough to read...  would you mind a re-post, please?

Thanks,
Chris

[96_SVT_Cobra]

Yeah one 255 wont do it. You can also use 2 Walbros or SVT Focus pumps/ Ford Aviator pumps or better yet Ford GT pumps.

i dont see y it wouldnt for a 03/04 motor with mild bolt ons. my car made 550 with a single walbro and a bap with 60lb injectors. and it still has a lil room.

Right, you're using a BAP. He would have to run an inline system like that and that is also pretty pricy. Not saying it's inferior. It's a great set up and I'd love to go return style down the road. I just think at the moment it would be cheaper/easier for him to go returnless. And Matt you'd only need ONE hat. That one hat holds both INTERNAL pumps...which is very nice.

Fixed. there u go chris

[MustangChris]

thanks aaron... i was all boggled. lol.

i think with 1 hat, this might be ecenomical enough for me to do the upgraded system.

can anyone help me out with a shopping list?

tank - bought
Fore hat
2 GT pumps
1 inline pump (??? maybe?)
inline filter (aeromotive?)
rails
injectors
FPR (aeromotive?)

i still have the FDPM harness coming in, will i use that?
im getting a better grasp on the parts, but im still at a loss on the electrical/computer.

Thanks to 330cube for his help this afternoon, as well!

[KWClutch]

You'll have to reprogram your 03 computer to run return style. You will not need the FPDM or FPDM harness nor an inline pump or BAP. The ford gt pumps will be plenty. You might have to upgrade your wiring from the computer to your pumps (thicker gauge wire) You'll need full length braided fuel lines. You'll need a fuel pressure gauge too to make sure you're golden.

[MustangChris]

tuner can re-program it, right?   will the car at least run (shitty) without the reprogram?  (enough to get it onto a trailor?)

the twin GT pumps will max out at what HP?

thanks for the help, everyone!

[KWClutch]

No the car probably will not run at all unless you get your wiring guy to wire up your pumps to some kinda power at ignition I suppose. Then maybe it'll run fine. But still I'd get your tuner to do what he needs to do. The ford GT pumps should be good till about 800-1000 I believe. You should have no problems with the pumps. You might have a problem with the poor stock wiring.

[MustangChris]

thanks brotha.... my uncle has been doing this car thing his entire life and isnt intimidated by electronics... so ill let the wiring be done by him in hopes of a more flawless start-up.

i was going to do this swap in stages, in hopes of making it easier to help prevent hic-ups in the final assembly, let me know what you think:

step 1: battery relocation to the trunk - start up.
step 2: gas tank/fuel system - start up. (probably running 1000% rich. lol., but only for a moment to make sure its functional)
step 3: terminator swap (dash swap, computer, engine.) start up.
step 4: body work (new hood, mirrors, and maybe spoiler.

then off to the tuning shop
then off to the paint shop.

[KWClutch]

You should be able to set the pressure and flow with the adjustable fuel regulator. Just make sure the pressure is about right. But whatever you do as soon as you get it running I would be VERY careful throttling it at all. Just get it on the trailer and get it to a tuner to check everything. It'll probably be fine but you spent a lot of money to create a cool product, don't get careless when it finally fires up.

[MustangChris]

we might push it onto the trailor at that point... lol.... get it all together... fire it... if it runs, push it onto the trailor and off to the tuner.

[J.R.]

Back the truck up...You're going way over the top here.

1. SVT Focus, Cobra, GT500 pumps will not work in a return style fuel system, at least not for long. They are designed to adjust fuel pressure constantly through varying the voltage (the ecu does this). You need fuel pumps designed for 86-97 car's. Your standard Walbro 255 is suficient to feed a stock Cobra engine. Combined with a boost a pump, you'll have enough fuel for up to 600 rwhp.

2. If you decide to go with the fuel mod's you have listed... You're looking at over 1k in fuel.

3. You don't need braided lines, if you go with a return style, you merely need to add return style rails, build your crossover piece, and add an adjustable FPR. Hook it to the stock lines and the tuner will handle the rest.

I made 500 rwhp with a 255 walbro, ONLY. I really needed to go to 60 lb injectors and a boost a pump to get the most out of it, but I never did. I just tried to live with the fact that my DD car made more power than 99.9% of car's running around on the street anyway, managed to pick the pieces up and move on.

Cobra's don't run into fuel problems with their stock systems until around 500 rwhp either...Again, I say keep it simple, get it running, and deal with upgrading the fuel when you upgrade the blower, later down the road. There's no need to get all kinky and throw that kind of money at it yet.

[MustangChris]

1. can i do two walbro 255s in place of the BAP?  my goal is to try and avoid dropping the tank later on if i add giggle-gas or something...

2. i have that kinda money for the fuel system... i was expecting worse than that...

3.  wahts a crossover piece?  what do stock lines go up to?  i was going to do the SS lines now while the tank was out...

4. you're girly car wasnt faster than 99.9% of street cars...  :-P lol.

thanks for your help, JR. ive been reading my ford books, but they dont give you info like this...

[J.R.]

1. Yes, if you want. Just put a relay back there and wire them in parellel (so them come on at the same time, I get confused on paralel vs series...)

2. I understand that, however, needlessly spending money is foolish nonetheless, save it for hooker's to relieve your stress.

3. The rails have a crossover from driver's side to passenger side rail. On your car is a whitish nylon type piece, on a 03 Cobra engine, it wouldn't fit, you'd need to make it custom. You can also add Aermotive bling billet rails if you like.

4. It was a rocket car, propelled by my awesomeness, powered by my manhood, of course it was like greased lightning.

No problem man, it's easy to go overboard with this stuff for sure.

[MustangChris]

1. my final build will be my teskid/KB...  can i set my fuel system up for say, 1000 HP and let the tuner run it at 45% for 450 HP with this cobra build?  so i was trying to do as much of the fuel system now in order to make the teskid more of a "drop in."

2. JR, you are talking to someone who spent $300.00 on rear view mirrors and $500.00 on tail lights. LOL!  I've toned down my needless spending, but id like to try to accomplish the fuel-goal set forth in #1.

3. gotcha.  i remember looking at that last night actually...  i was going to look more into it today, as i moved onto the power steering last night...  i'll probably look into the aeromotive stuff to avoid messing something up/reliability.

4. sigged.

Horsepower is so addictive... ive got 194... but i need MOAR!

[J.R.]

Yes, you can totally run the fuel system waay below capacity if need be and do it that way.

Aermotive actually has complete fuel systems if you wanna go that route and save some brain freeze,

http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-systems/ford1/

[MustangChris]

JR.  you rock.

[MustangChris]

I was lookin' at this and im not smart enough for fuel systems. lol.

Im guessing i should buy the 98-04 set up to properly fit the motor, as it appears that this is a complete return-style fuel system.

these kits are designed for sump-style tanks with external pupms.  how would i do this on a 2003 tank?  if i was going to do an external sump, i would just keep my stock tank :-P

I wanted an internal pump for cleanliness sake...  will everything except the filters/pump still work a set up with walbro pumps and a fore hat for an internal set up?

[Shame302]

Not to sound like a broken reckord but seriously, I would grab what you can from the cobra. I would convert your car to returnless with as much of the cobra parts as you can. The car is already tuned for it and the system is perfect for your performance expectations. The guys that go return style are high HP guys, you don't need it.